Comments on: The Battle of Degsastan http://senchus.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/the-battle-of-degsastan/ Notes on early medieval Scotland Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:41:03 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Pedant http://senchus.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/the-battle-of-degsastan/#comment-110 Pedant Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:44:57 +0000 http://senchus.wordpress.com/?p=65#comment-110 This was porposed by Hodgkin in 1808 - you seem to have copied his wording? This was porposed by Hodgkin in 1808 – you seem to have copied his wording?

]]> By: Tim http://senchus.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/the-battle-of-degsastan/#comment-92 Tim Tue, 25 Nov 2008 22:40:46 +0000 http://senchus.wordpress.com/?p=65#comment-92 Yes, Dawston and Arfderydd are fairly close and the River Liddel runs through both. The distance between the two places is only 20 miles (measured from Dawston Burn to the Arfderydd battle-site at Liddel Strength). The river brings the dark peaty waters of Dawston all the way down Liddesdale to the place where Gwenddoleu was slain in 573. The precise location was described by John of Fordun in c.1385 when he stated that the great battle was fought 'in campo inter Lidel et Carwanolow' ('in the field between Liddel and Carwanolow'). In the 19th century the Scottish antiquary William Forbes Skene identified Carwanolow as the little stream now called Carwinley Burn on the northern edge of the parish of Arthuret, ten miles north of Carlisle. Skene correctly deduced that the place-name Arthuret derived from the Arfderydd of Welsh heroic poetry. He also realized that the name Carwanolow was originally 'Caer Gwenddoleu', the Fort of Gwenddoleu. Skene was unaware of the medieval motte known as Liddel Strength until he visited Arthuret in the 1870s but, as soon as he saw the impressive earthworks towering above the river, he enthusiastically proposed that the ruined Norman castle (also known as Liddel Moat) stood on the site of Gwenddoleu's stronghold. This identification is probably right, though some historians suggest the Roman fort of Netherby as an alternative. Here's a curious snippet of sixth-century trivia: In one group of Old Welsh poems Gwenddoleu's personal bard was Merlin who allegedly went mad after witnessing the terrible carnage of Arfderydd and the death of his beloved lord. Nothing to do with the battle of Degsastan but slightly more entertaining. Yes, Dawston and Arfderydd are fairly close and the River Liddel runs through both. The distance between the two places is only 20 miles (measured from Dawston Burn to the Arfderydd battle-site at Liddel Strength). The river brings the dark peaty waters of Dawston all the way down Liddesdale to the place where Gwenddoleu was slain in 573. The precise location was described by John of Fordun in c.1385 when he stated that the great battle was fought ‘in campo inter Lidel et Carwanolow’ (‘in the field between Liddel and Carwanolow’). In the 19th century the Scottish antiquary William Forbes Skene identified Carwanolow as the little stream now called Carwinley Burn on the northern edge of the parish of Arthuret, ten miles north of Carlisle. Skene correctly deduced that the place-name Arthuret derived from the Arfderydd of Welsh heroic poetry. He also realized that the name Carwanolow was originally ‘Caer Gwenddoleu’, the Fort of Gwenddoleu. Skene was unaware of the medieval motte known as Liddel Strength until he visited Arthuret in the 1870s but, as soon as he saw the impressive earthworks towering above the river, he enthusiastically proposed that the ruined Norman castle (also known as Liddel Moat) stood on the site of Gwenddoleu’s stronghold. This identification is probably right, though some historians suggest the Roman fort of Netherby as an alternative.

Here’s a curious snippet of sixth-century trivia: In one group of Old Welsh poems Gwenddoleu’s personal bard was Merlin who allegedly went mad after witnessing the terrible carnage of Arfderydd and the death of his beloved lord. Nothing to do with the battle of Degsastan but slightly more entertaining.

]]> By: Michelle http://senchus.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/the-battle-of-degsastan/#comment-91 Michelle Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:16:36 +0000 http://senchus.wordpress.com/?p=65#comment-91 Is Dawston very close to Arfderydd/Arthuret? The river Liddle seems to come to mind for Arthuret. This seems too far west for Aethelfrith before 603 although Bede claims he took more territory from the British than any previous English king. I've always credited the death of Dunod ap Pabo to Aethelfrith, though if memory serves me correctly that was about 595. Then again with all the inter-British warfare he could have fallen to another Briton. Anyway, I agree that Dawston doesn't have any claim to the Battle of Degsastan. Degsastan does remind us how very important battle sites have been lost. Bede clearly thought it was one of the most important battle sites in his history and yet its lost. Then again so are the sites where Oswald, Penda, and Edwin fell. I guess I could argue that the death of young Aelfwine in 679 was the most important since it resulted in the border being set for centuries, but it is lost too. Is Dawston very close to Arfderydd/Arthuret? The river Liddle seems to come to mind for Arthuret. This seems too far west for Aethelfrith before 603 although Bede claims he took more territory from the British than any previous English king. I’ve always credited the death of Dunod ap Pabo to Aethelfrith, though if memory serves me correctly that was about 595. Then again with all the inter-British warfare he could have fallen to another Briton. Anyway, I agree that Dawston doesn’t have any claim to the Battle of Degsastan.

Degsastan does remind us how very important battle sites have been lost. Bede clearly thought it was one of the most important battle sites in his history and yet its lost. Then again so are the sites where Oswald, Penda, and Edwin fell. I guess I could argue that the death of young Aelfwine in 679 was the most important since it resulted in the border being set for centuries, but it is lost too.

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